Recaps / Q & A:
FORMER GEORGIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: "I BECAME AN OBSTACLE"
John Mackedon: 10/24/05
A EurasiaNet Q&A with Salome Zourabichvili

The recent dismissal of Georgia's foreign minister, Salome Zourabichvili, represented the most significant cabinet crisis since the death of Prime Minister Zurab Zhvania in February. Since her departure from office, Zourabichvili has been outspoken about the current state of politics in Georgia. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive]. A large rally in Tbilisi on October 20 – the largest political demonstration since the country's 2003 Rose Revolution – showed that the former foreign minister is politically popular. It also hinted that popular dissatisfaction with President Mikhail Saakashvili's administration may be broader than previously believed. In an interview with EurasiaNet, Zourabichvili analyzed the reasons for her dismissal and pondered her political future. The full text of her comments follows:

EurasiaNet: Why do you believe you were dismissed? Zourabichvili: I think there is both a structural reason that is not completely linked with me and there are [other] reasons, which share a common point now. I think this would have happened anyway, but I must say I miscalculated the depths of the first criticisms and attacks that began two months after my appointment [in March 2004] and almost never ceased. Every time I left the country there was a new wave of attacks on different points that were all related to either the work of the ministry or to real points. I think the [other] problems, which are linked to the structural points, are matters of corruption, which I was not allowing to happen. First, there was a cleaning-up of the ministry, but this was something that was probably expected and not the main point. Then I came across more important cases having to do with buildings in Kyiv, Moscow, and, probably, Tbilisi and I became an obstacle for things to be done the way they used to be done.

Now the more, I would say, philosophical reason for this decision is that I think we are coming to a turning point, in which the democratic trend that was established by the Rose Revolution has gained momentum, and I think that the people who represent the old system – with their old methods, old ways of thinking and old ways of making money – are feeling, almost instinctively, that their time is coming to an end. This might not happen tomorrow morning, but these people can feel that when the next elections happen, new people will be brought to power and new procedures will be put into place almost everywhere. I was somehow a symbol for their fight for survival.

EurasiaNet: These are the "neo-communist" forces that you have alluded to in earlier statements? Zourabichvili: These forces are also linked with neo-communist forces in Russia and elsewhere in the post-Soviet space. Of course, they are stronger in Russia than they are in Georgia.

EurasiaNet: Do you think that these forces are prevailing in Georgia's governmental structures, in the parliament or in the ministries? Zourabichvili: I think these people have found their last "square" in the parliament, because they were elected through a party-list system that prevented the people from really choosing the candidates who they know and want, which in Georgia is quite easy, because it is a small country and everybody knows everything about everyone. This, by the way, is one of my strengths, as everyone knows that what these people are saying is false and these people are not the clean people they are pretending to be. This is how I was able to gather momentum without any organization [during the October 20 rally]. Nobody knows exactly how many people came out – not less than 10,000, and maybe upwards around 20,000. But this doesn't really matter – what is important is that these people came out on their own, with just 12 hours' notice, without any clear message on my part [about] what would be the next step, or what they were coming out for; they were there to simply testify that democracy is very much alive in Georgia and I think that is a very important message.

EurasiaNet: You mentioned that your dismissal was directed at President Saakashvili himself. Can you explain this is greater detail? Zourabichvili: Yes, I think that, through me, the last fight between different trends in the government [is taking place]. I think the fact that President Saakashvili either didn't realize this or did not want to realize this – this is something I still do not know – means that he has suffered a very significant political blow. His main support was from the population and he was losing some of this support, which is normal, because certain economic benefits have not materialized yet and many things that people thought would immediately disappear have not disappeared. The fact that he is not able to regain this popularity through me makes what is going to happen next very difficult for him because the other people that are fighting him don't receive their strength from the population – they get their strength from the old methods, the old system of corruption and the money they receive from this.

EurasiaNet: Do you, then, still support the president and his initiatives? Zourabichvili: Well, my way of looking at things is that I am, of course, disappointed, but this is just personal and has nothing to do with future politics. What I am going to do is move into a civil society movement because I think the best way to defend democracy is to strengthen civil society, which exists but needs organization. This civil society will organize itself along some main lines, which are focus on the defense of democracy everywhere. This does not mean that we are going to systematically support everything the government does – if things are positive and going in the right direction, which I think is often still the case with many things right now, then we will be supportive. It is important not to deviate from this democratic course and that is what we need a civil society for. I may create a political party in the future, but this is not what is urgent at present.

EurasiaNet: In the event that this new party is formed, where do you expect the finances to come from? Zourabichvili: I am sure that there are a lot of finances available in Georgia and from Georgians abroad. During my last function – as foreign minister – I was always meeting with [members of] the Georgian diaspora and they are very interested in helping with anything that will go into the democratization process in Georgia which will allow them to come back. They have not yet decided [how to do this], but I think those people trust me more than anybody else because I am one of them. I came back to Georgia from a life outside.

EurasiaNet: Can you comment on [newly appointed Foreign Minister] Gela Bezhuashvili – what can we expect to change by this appointment, and what is the government indicating by making this choice? [For additional information see the Eurasia Insight archive]. Zourabichvili: I'm worried. But if you mean an open change in the orientation of the foreign policies of Georgia, I don't think this will be the case because that is clearly not possible and there is no real alternative to the foreign policy of Georgia as it has been expressed by the president when he arrived and [as] was carried out by me. My concern is that there is weakness in Georgia, which makes the Russian hand stronger. I have already spoken about the links between certain forces in the country [Georgia] and Russia – especially in the [energy] sector – and this may increase the dependency of the country [on Russia] in real terms.

EurasiaNet: You have been criticized for taking a weak stance in regards to policies relating to the resolution of the South Ossetian and Abkhaz conflicts. What were the main points of disagreement that you had with your political opponents? Zourabichvili: I don't think that [other officials] were disagreeing with me – all someone has to do is look at the speech I made at the United Nations [in September] and other statements I have made and look at the formation of a new group of friends [New Friends of Georgia] and all the things we were planning for 2006. The only difference between me and some of the people in the parliament is that I don't believe that you get things done by insulting Russians, especially when you are the foreign minister. It doesn't make sense. You always have to deal with them in the end. Sometimes you have to be very firm, which I was. Last year, when [Russian Foreign Minister Sergei] Lavrov was threatening to use any means in the elections in Abkhazia, I was calling all foreign ministers and telling various international news agencies that this was absolutely unacceptable and we, too, would react through any means necessary; but that is something you have to do as a last resort. One thing I am convinced of is that if the peace process doesn't move in 2006, then we will be in a very tense situation in 2007, because this is the year before elections in both Georgia and Russia [parliamentary in Georgia; presidential in Russia - ed.]. There has to be a strategy. It is not enough to say, 'We don't like what is happening, in terms of human rights, politics and find it unacceptable.' We have to move towards defining, for ourselves and for our partners, a clear step-by-step policy of what we are doing. This is something that I will continue to work over.

EurasiaNet: Can you discuss the recent move by the United States to become involved in the South Ossetian peace process? Zourabichvili: Yes, this is something that I told the president – that this is one event, among others, that convinced this group to take action against me. This group felt that the president is at his weakest point right now, because we are in a transition period, the time before we receive the benefits from the good moves that have been made. These people also understood that this move by the United States to become involved in the peace process will probably result in some progress being made in the conflict zone – South Ossetia, in particular – by next summer, thus boosting the ratings of the president, so this group was prompted to act now.

Editor’s Note: John Mackedon is a Tbilisi-based writer who works for the online publication Civil Georgia.