From: Justin Burke (JBurke@sorosny.org)
Date: Fri Jul 21 2000 - 11:33:04 EDT
Azeri TV broadcasts full interview with Chechen commander
Private Azeri TV company ANS has broadcast in full an interview with Chechen
field commander Shamil Basayev, despite an earlier warning from the Azeri
Prosecutor-General's Office not to do so. ANS TV chief Vahid Mustafayev,
whose commentary was interspersed throughout the interview, said that the
head of the Azerbaijani Presidential Executive Staff, Ali Hasanov, had had
the courage to acknowledge that Russian special services were putting
pressure on Azerbaijan over the interview. Mustafayev said that Russia
wanted to seize power in Azerbaijan and throughout the Caucasus but that it
realized it was losing its options in Azerbaijan.Interviewed in an
unidentified location, Shamil Basayev said that the situation was now
"positive" amongst the Chechen mojahedin. He said that 30-40 Russians were
killed a day on average while 1,800 mojahedin had died since the start of
the current war. He said that the war would continue until the Caucasus was
free and the Russian empire destroyed. Although the mojahedin were not
campaigning to raise funds, Basayev that they did receive money from
individuals around the world. He said expenditure was low as the Chechens
seized or bought most of their weapons from the Russian forces. Basayev
said that all the people who had been involved in kidnapping in Chechnya
had now gone over to the Russian side. Asked whether he watched TV, Basayev
said that he only watched football and that Turkey had lost at the Euro
2000 tournament because of anti-Muslim sentiment. The following is the text
of the report by ANS on 19th July
[Presenter in the studio] Good evening, you are watching the "Point of View"
programme. The republic's Prosecutor-General's Office has accused ANS TV
and radio company of propagandizing war, violence and cruelty. The reason
was the partial broadcasting of the interview with the Chechen field
commander, Shamil Basayev, in the "Frank Conversation" programme. We are
presenting to you "Point of View" with the head of the ANS TV and radio
company, Vahid Mustafayev. At first, a short round-up of recent reports.
[Reporter over a round-up of events shown on the screen] June-July 2000 ANS
reporters Elchin Hasanov and Azer Muradov interviewed Chechen President
Alsan Maskhadov and field commander Shamil Basayev.
14th July: ANS's power was cut during the broadcasting of the interview with
Shamil Basayev.
15th July: The Azerbaijani Prosecutor-General's Office sends a letter of
warning to ANS accusing it of violating the law.
16th July: The foreign and national security ministries say that Russia did
not exert any pressure about the programme.
17th July: The head of the public and political department of the
Presidential Executive Staff, Ali Hasanov, states that Russia demanded that
the programme should not be broadcast
17th July: The head of the ANS independent TV and radio company, Vahid
Mustafayev, issues a statement replying to the warning letter.
18th July: An independent political scientist, Vafa Guluzade, states [on
ANS's "Point of View" programme] that Russia is interfering in Azerbaijan's
internal affairs.
[Presenter] Welcome, Vahid muallim [form of address].
[Vahid Mustafayev, speaking in Azeri throughout] Good evening.
[Subhead] ANS head contrasts Azerbaijani objectivity with Russian propaganda
[Presenter] For what reason did ANS send reporters to Chechnya?
[Mustafayev] We are journalists. Journalism in ANS differs by 180 degrees
from the journalism of the former Russian empire and the Soviet empire. As
you will recall, that was propaganda journalism, and now this style is
continuing. A number of Russian channels are still engaged in propaganda,
Azerbaijan's journalism is a little ahead. Today we really are engaged in
independent journalism. The main value of independent journalism is
informing viewers about the views of both sides in a conflict. We have
always done our job in this way. When we cover even a trivial dispute in
our "Domestic News" programmes, we try to create equal conditions for both
sides to express their views. This is the main principle of ANS.
Objectivity, impartiality and accuracy are our main principles.
You know that there are three Russian channels which broadcast in
Azerbaijan. These three channels are carrying out major propaganda here. We
recently came across a terrible thing here. Our reporters conducted a short
opinion poll amongst our elementary school children in Russian-speaking
schools. When they were asked who the Chechens are, the Russian-speaking
schoolchildren said that they are terrorists. We were shocked. We realized
that Azerbaijani viewers are under the influence of this propaganda and do
not have information from the other side of the conflict, the people blame
one side and defend the other. This is the result of Russian propaganda.
This is why we sent our reporters to Chechnya.
We sent Elchin Hasanov and Azer Muradov there. They stayed there for 40 days
and bribed their way into Chechnya. As I said before, unlike the Russian
federal forces, they managed to meet both Shamil Basayev and Aslan
Maskhadov and interviewed them and returned home to Azerbaijan safely.
I think that Russia is being so sensitive because the whole world has
already realized that Russia's special services and Russia's border forces
will do anything for money today and there is no need to say that some
terrorist forces come to Chechnya from Azerbaijan and Azerbaijan supports
them. Corruption is raging today. Everything was settled thanks to money,
on the way there and back. Thus, we brought the objective view of a second
party.
At last, our viewers will be able to watch this interview - the cause of so
much suffering - with the field commander, Shamil Basayev. I am personally
presenting this interview to you in full, but dividing it into segments. I
would like to ask employees of the prosecutor's office, the National
Security Ministry and the electricity system, as they sometimes work
together, to watch this interview carefully. They must see that this
interview is really useful for Azerbaijani citizens, more so than for
Chechen citizens.
Let us see the situation in Chechnya.
[Subhead] Basayev says war in Chechnya going well for his side
[Shamil Basayev, shown in a dark room, seated on the floor at low table in
front of a wall hanging with the Arabic inscription Allahu Akbar on it. He
speaks in Russian throughout] In the name of God, the Merciful, the
Compassionate! Thank God that he created us as Muslims and gave us his
mercy, and jihad on his direct path. At the moment, one can assess the
situation as positive for us and there is even a trend towards increasing
resistance against the Russian occupiers and an overall enthusiasm for the
national and liberation movement.
Today, about 30-50 attacks are being launched against the Russian occupiers
every day. Every day about 30-40 occupiers die here and, on average, the
same number of occupiers are wounded. Every day five to 10 pieces of
military hardware are also destroyed.
In March we switched to guerrilla warfare and we are destroying about five
helicopters every month. Now I can assess today's situation as positive. At
present there is an influx of new young mojahedin. Many mojahedin, who went
home in February, a difficult month for us, are already coming back to the
ranks. There is a great upsurge of self-awareness amongst the people as
well.
This shows that we are on the right path and that our affairs are going
successfully, mashallah [thank God]!
[Subhead] Living conditions basic, but good for guerrilla warfare
[Reporter] In general, we are speaking quietly, under what conditions are
you now living?
[Basayev] Speaking about me personally, I have spent practically all my time
in forests, we in fact have bases throughout the republic. I personally
have to be in a makeshift shelter in the forest almost all the time. This
is not because I do not have the chance to be somewhere in a village, but
only because the Russians are firing at villages blindly, at random. This
is especially because I do not want them to know my whereabouts, and in
order not to deprive them of the excuse to kill civilians under the pretext
that I, or anyone else, is present in a village. This is one side of the
issue, and secondly, this allows us to be more mobile and saves us time and
energy. We can direct our energies today to the war and to military efforts
to liberate our motherland from the Russian occupiers. We have more free
time when we are indirectly amongst the mojahedin in mountains and forests.
There are more problems when we are in a village, we have less scope and
opportunity for manoeuvre.
[Reporter] How many hours per day do you actually sleep now?
[Basayev] I have no permanent schedule. I sleep as long as I can [smiling].
But as many say, sleeping three or four hours, I do not have this. I can
sleep 12 hours, eight hours or two hours. It depends on how necessary it
is.
[Subhead] Russia better prepared for second Chechen war
[Reporter] What is the difference between the first Chechen liberation war
and the second?
[Basayev] There is a great difference. First of all, the Russians have
prepared for this war, I could say, fundamentally. And throughout the three
years that they have been signing agreements with our leadership, they have
been preparing for this war - since 1996. Their behaviour and everything
they have done during this time shows this and the course of the war itself
shows that they have prepared very thoroughly. We, to be honest, entered
this war weaker than we were in the previous war. Because the Russians
managed to split us badly or well, they managed to disperse our forces and,
if this war had not started, we would have had a civil war. The Russians
worked very well in this sense. But there are no other special differences.
The only thing is that the Russians have imposed censorship on all
information about this war, and very thoroughly too. This is further proof
that they have prepared well.
And, more cynically and impudently, they are staking everything on it and
have brought all their agents and, as it were, reserve players to the fore.
In practice, they are now staking everything they have. But they bomb
villages and exterminate civilians in the same impudent way as before and,
at every opportunity, they use any force necessary.
This war is also different because the same world community is trying less
than before to stop this and intervene. Even the journalists trying to come
here are fewer in number. There is an explanation for this. The main thing
is that we proclaimed the Islamic Republic of Ichkeria in February last
year. That is the sole point and there are no other reasons. Today the West
is also engaged in a concert, raising weak voices to stop this war and
something along those lines. In doing so, they are trying to deceive the
Muslims of the world that they want to do something. In fact, they are
feeding Russia and bankrolling this war as was the case last time.
[Subhead] Russian "divide and rule" policy pays off in Caucasus
[Presenter in the studio] Vahid muallim, do you think, incidentally, that
the fact that the interview was not allowed to be broadcast, was aimed at
setting Azerbaijani citizens against each other.
[Mustafayev] I do not think so. The fact is that there might be other
political reasons. For example, as you see there are some high-ranking
officials in Azerbaijan who dance to Russia's tune and our state officials
say that the tapes were smuggled. What does this mean? Firstly, it means
that Russia wants to close its borders with Azerbaijan. Russia wants to
introduce a visa requirement. We are being accused of terrorism. What does
all this mean? This means that they want to prove to the Azerbaijani
people, through the means at their disposal in Azerbaijan, that the Chechen
people are terrorists and they want to distance us from them. Generally
speaking, every empire, including the Russian empire, pursues a policy of
divide and rule. As the Russians themselves say: [in Russian] divide and
rule.
They want to divide and split the Caucasus, and then take total power. We
heard it in Mr Basayev's interview when he says that they set us against
each other and even went so far as preparing a civil war in order to make
it easy to split us. Remember the time of our war, the Azerbaijani-Armenian
war. We have the same situation. Russia's special services set all the
forces in Azerbaijan against each other, made them struggle and fight each
other and, in this way, Russia made Azerbaijan totally weak. By helping
Armenia, it had 20 per cent of our land occupied. Remember this. When
political conflicts were under way here, there was absolute silence in
Armenia. Given that, they did not need anything else.
It was this scenario and these tactics which were used again in Chechnya.
But they failed to carry out their plans, perhaps because the Chechen
people are simply fewer in number or there might be other reasons for that.
However, when we think about [head of pro-Moscow Chechen administration;
Mufti Akhmad] Kadyrov and [Kadyrov's deputy, Beslan] Gantamirov, we can see
that the Russian special services are succeeding in this too.
Basayev too underlined Russia's actions in the Caucasus, the principle of
sowing enmity among the people and taking power. Let us listen again. This
section is very interesting.
[Subhead] Incursion into Dagestan to help Muslims there
[Basayev] The main reason is that we want to live freely and independently
of Russia and the Russian empire. This is also a reason.
[Reporter] As we know, the second Chechen war started after the forces you
led entered Dagestan, i.e. Russia presented this as if they were allegedly
liberating Dagestan. What was the reason for your entering Dagestan, after
which the situation developed in this way. I mean they, the Russian side,
are talking about this now.
[Basayev] This is dead information prepared in advance. They used this,
given that they have the mass media in their hands. I would also say that
this is not a second Chechen war. This war has been going on for 400 years
now. I could say that this war is the 50th or 100th war. They are trying to
portray our entry into Dagestan as a terrorist act or something like that.
Today we have no opportunity to fully prove or argue our point of view via
the media, or to present it to anyone. But we did not violate any
international norms or rules. And, especially, we did not break Sharia'h
[law]. We helped first in Tsumadinskiy District [of Dagestan] when they
were exterminating the Muslims there. We were asked to help and we came to
their aid. We entered Botlikhskiy District [of Dagestan] and cut off the
road leading to Tsumadinskiy District. As a result, we forced the Russian
aggressors to lift their encirclement because we had already surrounded
them. We did not even take Botlikh, although we could have done so. We had
no such objective.
On the second day when the blockade of these Dagestanis was lifted, we
managed to get away from there. We left Dagestani territory on the second
day and this is very telling. When we entered Novolakskiy District for the
second time, the same thing happened. They started brazenly exterminating
civilians in Karamakhi. Both the first and second time, we appealed on
behalf of the Majlis of Muslims of Ichkeria and Dagestan to the Russian
government and its Dagestani puppets to stop the bloodshed. At least, we
asked them to give us a chance to take women, children and the elderly out
of Karamakhi. There were about 1,000 children and about 600 women and
elderly people. But they did not even consider this and we entered
Novolakskiy District for the second time. We fought only Russian troops in
both cases. We attracted certain forces to ourselves and, in doing so, we
created the opportunity to save women and children, and many mojahedin also
left that place safe and sound.
[Subhead] Russian campaign in Caucasus premeditated, not response to
Dagestan
Of course, we can say that in doing so, we endangered, so to speak, the
Chechen Republic of Ichkeria and gave Russia a chance to attack us again.
But they only said this, facts show the opposite. Facts have shown that
last autumn there would have been a war in any case and under any pretext -
either a civil war or Russia would have entered here because they were
preparing for elections.
Back in June we caught about 58 people who were agents of Russia's FSS
[Federal Security Service] and from the state intelligence department. They
said that on 15th August they planned a large programme to murder our
leaders and also destabilize the situation. They also worked on organizing
a civil war.
From March-April 1999, Shelkovskiy and Naurskiy Districts were constantly
subjected to artillery bombardments under the pretext that people were
allegedly attacking them from there. Although they conducted mopping-up
operations in the lowlands, it was not convenient to attack from there. We
might as well attack them from the mountains. The situation was aggravated
in order to carry out the attack in the autumn. Then in May the Russians
seized our customs checkpoint in Kizlyar, a kilometre-wide strip of land.
They killed two customs officials during the attack. There is a village,
(?Kinakhi), in the mountains not far from it, about 15km from there. They
occupied the village and deployed their troops there. They constantly
organized provocative actions. One more important fact are military maps,
which we are seizing today during combat actions from Russian officers,
changes carried out in 1998 and 1999 can be found on these maps. These maps
include all the new buildings, new pathways, especially roads, they even
show how many houses were built in each village, and these changes are
drawn in blue ink. It turned out that they prepared themselves for this
long ago.
[Subhead] Russian pressure stopped ANS broadcast
[Presenter] The Chechens are being accused of terrorism, kidnappings,
bombings in different cities and of various wrongdoings of this kind. Vahid
muallim, do you believe that the Prosecutor's Office of Azerbaijan had this
in mind when condemning ANS for propagating terrorism?
[Mustafayev] The Russian special services exerted pressure on the
Prosecutor's Office of Azerbaijan, and they issued us this warning on the
basis of this. Let us stop this here. Today, there was only one person in
Azerbaijan, in the government, a respected person, only one person who
really had the courage to say this. This person was Ali Hasanov from the
Presidential Executive Staff [head of the public and political department].
He said that pressure had really been exerted on us from Russia in this
respect. They did not allow us to broadcast Basayev. I want to say that we
should finish this issue here. If someone does not have the guts to say
that pressure was really exerted on them, this does not mean that this is
not true.
You know, history is a wonderful thing. Everything finds its place in its
own time and everyone answers for his or her deeds. As [the late
Azerbaijani journalist, brother of Vahid Mustafayev] Chingiz Mustafayev
said in his programme - nothing and no-one will be forgotten. Therefore, we
exist and we will exist with the help of God and our nation.
[Subhead] Russia, not Chechens behind bombings that triggered war
As for what you said, you know, our people are also unaware of this.
Generally, there is a presumption of innocence. Not a single Chechen
mojahed has been brought to court in any country, including Azerbaijan, for
blowing up a house, committing a terrorist act or kidnapping. Therefore,
according to this presumption of innocent until proven guilty, no-one can
say that they did these things. Second, you know that several Chechens are
in the hands of the Russians, in Russian cells and prisons. Nevertheless,
they have not stood before a court either. This is really an interesting
issue.
As for blasting those buildings, you know perfectly well who needed this.
When Russia waged war against Germany, when the Soviet state was at war
with Germany in 1941-45, you must remember that the Russian NKVD [Stalin's
secret police] itself burnt Katyn in order to show to the whole world how
brutal the fascists and the Germans were. It was true that the fascists and
Germans were brutal, but this old trick could have been repeated today as
well. Russia's own media reports said that this was done by the NKVD, this
was revealed from the KGB's archives.
You know, I do not think that the Chechen mojahedin are stupid. I do not
think so because at least they are opposing a big state such as Russia
today and they can have their word. This is the first thing. Second, if the
Chechen people wanted to use force against the Russian people, if they
wanted to declare something to them - you know that tens and hundreds of
houses are being built in Russia, as is the case in Azerbaijan, they are
empty and consist of a frame, no-one lives in them - they could bomb these
empty houses and say that we had bombed these empty houses, if you did not
stop all these things, we would bomb houses where people lived. Do you
understand? This could be the ultimatum. But one cannot suddenly bomb
houses where people live. We can listen ourselves, and Shamil Basayev can
say this himself. Let me not tire our viewers and let us listen to him.
[Basayev] I said earlier that I was against signing a peace accord. But this
was used as a front which allowed Russia to pretend before the world
community that everything was OK here, that we reached an agreement and
concluded a peace accord. But one can sign a peace accord if both sides are
happy with each other. So they played a political game. The fact that the
Russians got ready for this in advance is proved by kidnappings of
journalists, businessmen and even ordinary people. This fact speaks for
itself because today all the people who were engaged in kidnappings in the
republic, led by Mufti Akhmad Kadyrov, are taking the Russians' side.
[Reporter] How did you feel about this, particularly about the kidnappings?
[Basayev] My attitude towards this was negative, very negative. As much as
possible, we actively fight this. But then it became like an epidemic and
we did not have any scope because of the recent war, because of the chaos.
We could not even pay salaries to members of the police and the special
services. We appealed to various states for help, at least to help us build
prisons and provide equipment for them, to provide the most necessary
things at least for our special services. Our deputy prime minister,
Atgeriyev, even visited Great Britain to hold negotiations in this
connection. But all this was only words. The majority of people, who were
engaged in the most notorious cases of kidnapping of journalists and
foreigners, they are all on the Russians' side today. This once again
proves that this action was planned in advance. For instance, killings of
ethnic Russians, the poorest people, who had nothing to give, they were
simply killed. This took place in Shelkovskiy and Naurskiy Districts, in
Groznyy. Competent and professional people worked there. [unclear sentence
omitted] There are lots of facts, but no-one needs these facts today.
Therefore we treat this calmly. Let the Russians say what they want, let
them call us terrorists and their terrorist operation an anti-terrorist
operation. We can answer simply with an Oriental saying - dogs are barking,
but the caravan goes on. So, I also say that dogs are barking, but the
jihad goes on. Allahu akbar!
[Subhead] Basayev surprised no culprit for bombings, given Russian torture
methods
[Reporter] The blasts in Moscow also played an important role. When
apartment buildings were blown up in Moscow and other places.
[Basayev] The main thing is that they took place at the right time.
[Reporter] I would like to know your opinion about this. Up till now they
have been saying that it was the Chechens who planted these bombs, but
until now there has not been a single shred of evidence, I mean they have
not caught the person who bombed those buildings.
[Basayev] I am personally surprised that the Russians have not found any
Chechen yet. Because according to the modern torture method, which is being
used by the Russians in concentration camps, primarily against the
Chechens, according to this torture method, I think that several thousand
Chechens would confess that they planted these bombs, they would even
confess that they killed Alexander the Great. I am surprised that no-one
has confessed to this yet.
[Reporter] Salman Raduyev assumed responsibility for all the explosions.
What is your attitude towards Salman Raduyev?
[Basayev] I am very surprised that now when Salman is in captivity he does
not confess to this. Because the Russians can force him, even against his
will, as they are now using a smart method of torture, in particular, they
are injecting prisoners of war with narcotic substances. They do not
consider them to be prisoners. There is no law. If a person falls into
their hands, he leaves them as an invalid. Therefore, it is very surprising
that they have not yet found any Chechen connections in those cases.
But on the other hand, they gave us a very good idea. We had problems with
explosives. They gave us a good idea how to prepare explosives. Only stupid
people cannot find on the Internet how to prepare explosives from hexogen
and other substances. It is pointless for us to bother with fertilizers. We
have lots of ammunition all over the republic, we even have bombs weighing
many tonnes. [Unclear sentence omitted] Besides, now the Russians have run
out of their bombs and they are dropping tatavirovka [as heard], which are
used for clearing mine fields. There is pure plastic there [as heard], we
have tonnes of ATS [as heard]. Besides, as for the Chechen connections in
those explosions, I would say that we did not do anything like that in the
previous war, although there was a genocide going on, there were
difficulties, but we did not do this. We are not doing this in the current
war either. Why would we need this?
Then, in practice, we had just entered Dagestan, and we went there normally,
there were no problems. We left as winners both times, why would we need to
blow anything up? This is just a simple, elementary question. We would have
gained nothing from that. If we would cause explosions today, then it would
be understandable as they have destroyed a lot here and killed many people,
caused difficulties, bitterness, it would be understandable, so to speak,
but why then? Especially as Russians have always made use of the blood of
their citizens and used their people as cattle. And who will gain from
blowing up of a couple of houses and killing a couple of hundred people,
civilians, ordinary people? And why would we do this?
Why would we carry out these explosions, we, Chechen mojahedin, who in both
the previous war and this one defended those very Russians, ordinary
civilians, both here in Chechnya and in Russia. We Chechens who, in the
previous war and this one, gave these very soldiers to their mothers in
their hundreds.
[Subhead] Chechen casualties much lower in second war
[Reporter] By the way, speaking of civilians, have more mojahedin or
civilians died in this war?
[Basayev] The law of war anywhere is that civilians always suffer the most.
According to calculations by - what do they call him - the notorious
commentator [First Deputy Chief of Russia's General Staff Col-Gen Valeriy]
Manilov - according to his calculations, around seven-and-a-half million of
us, mojahedin, have died, or eight-and-a-half million, I do not remember
exactly, but this many died. While, up to the present, according to our
calculations, around 1,800 of our mojahedin have died in this war.
During the previous war [1994-96], we had more than 2,900 or around 3,000
killed in two years of war and 15,000 wounded. In this war, the figure has
not yet reached 2,000. Let us have 200,000. It will just make us happy
because if there are 200,000 martyrs, if 200,000 people go to paradise, it
is a great joy for us, especially as - here is our flag, the flag of the
Majlis of Muslims of Ichkeria and Dagestan. There is an inscription at the
bottom - ihda al-husnayin. It is a verse from the Koran, which, translated
literally, means one of the two best, i.e. victory or paradise. So, we have
modest demands, we do not want too much - either victory in this life or
paradise in the next. That's why we are not losing in either case.
[Presenter in studio] I should remind you again that today's guest in our
studio is the president of the ANS independent media company, Vahid
Mustafayev. Vahid muallim, why do you think Russia is so particularly
concerned about the broadcasting of the Shamil Basayev interview in
Azerbaijan?
[Subhead] New generation in Azerbaijan ready to assert its independence from
Russia
[Mustafayev] Firstly, Shamil Basayev is also the guest of the studio today,
not just me. As for your question, you know the Azerbaijani people lost its
most valuable and wonderful representatives during the [Nagornyy Karabakh]
war. You see how many heroes there are lying in Martyrs' Avenue, how many
heroes lie in graves and how many graves of heroes there are throughout the
whole of Azerbaijan's territory, in various districts. May they rest in
peace. There is no doubt that, after the death of these hero martyrs, the
national forces ready to fight for Azerbaijan decreased in this country.
The Russian special services never stop and constantly continue their
investigations and work in Azerbaijan. From this point of view, they see
that new forces are appearing in Azerbaijan today, seven years after the
war. Azerbaijan continues to be independent, it is really making efforts to
write its name large in the world, and these efforts are already finding
themselves reflected in life.
Today a new generation has been formed in Azerbaijan, and this generation
really loves its motherland and people and is ready to die for the sake of
its motherland and people. We see these examples every day and meet these
people. Undoubtedly, an interview like the one by Shamil Basayev
strengthens and unites these forces, which can rise up to fight any
opposing force for the sake of Azerbaijan and the Azerbaijani people. I
think that it is mainly from this point of view that they wanted to prevent
some state structures broadcasting this.
As I mentioned before, the main purpose is to destroy and divide all the
Caucasus republics in order to seize power. The simplest and most
advantageous way to seize power in the Caucasus is to take Azerbaijan.
Russia sees that it is gradually losing nearly all its options in
Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan is growing stronger as an independent state. Our
army is getting stronger. Our people's self-perception is evolving. Of
course, these developments do not allow them to sit by calmly. Azerbaijan
is the heart and brain of the Caucasus and it is a territory which carries
out all other vital functions in a human body. Therefore fighting for the
sake of Azerbaijan has not ended and it will continue. Interference and
pressure on our state bodies, like that employed by Russia, will also
continue. I think that we must be ready for more fighting and must not
sacrifice our people and our representatives on the altar of not only
Russia, but also any other country. Nobody should ever say to any Russian
official - I assure you that I will investigate everything and punish them
[the words Ramiz Mehdiyev, the head of the Azerbaijani Presidential
Executive Staff, said in Moscow]. This cannot be the case. No people of the
world will respect us if we do not respect ourselves. I believe that the
Azerbaijani people have already started to respect themselves and I want to
say with a sense of pride that the Azerbaijani people are no longer a
people existing under Soviet rule. A new generation has come and this new
generation will take Azerbaijan towards a brighter future. I believe
Basayev's opinions on this would be very interesting.
[Subhead] War is making faith of Chechen Muslims stronger
[Reporter] Talking about the traitors, I would like to find out your opinion
about [head of pro-Moscow Chechen administration, Akhmad] Kadyrov. What do
you think Russia's aim was in appointing Kadyrov here?
[Basayev] Firstly, his surname is not Kadyrov, but Kafyrov [kaffir -
infidel]. There was a sign there. There should be an "f " instead of "d".
Secondly, the fact that he was appointed as the chief puppet says firstly
that the Russians are actually running a risk. That is, they defied all the
rules, completely changed all tactics and threw off all their masks, and
brought all their agents to the front line, too. At the end of the last
war, our special services had information that when we defeated the Federal
Security Service in Groznyy in August, documents fell into our hands and
Kadyrov's surname was there, with his nickname - Adam - next to it.
[Reporter] Does the Sharia'h Court still exist in Chechnya or not?
[Basayev] Of course, it does. First, the Sharia'h Court was not just a whim,
but was needed for our obligations before the most high. So, we cannot
cancel what is not in our hands and what we do not have at our disposal.
This refers to the Sharia'h Court.
[Reporter] How are the fighters who distinguish themselves rewarded and
traitors punished now?
[Basayev] We do not have particular fighter-traitors, as there is
practically no one who was forcibly involved in the war or who was even
called up for service as is the case in other states. All here are
volunteers. Because jihad is voluntary work. There is a verse in the Koran
which says that he who takes the direct path goes for himself, and he who
is mistaken harms himself. Those who could not carry the burden of others
were not punished until they rescued the messenger [sentence as heard].
According to this verse, he who wages a jihad is waging it for himself.
No-one is waging it for me - I am talking about them [volunteers] now -
they did not come to this war for my sake, they are not suffering
difficulties and deprivations for my sake and risking their lives at the
moment, they are doing this for the sake of God and for themselves. I say
to every mojahed - you have not come to dig my kitchen garden or to work
for me. You have come for the sake of God and for yourself. That's why we
do not have problems. Firstly, we do not even have the notion of treason.
And secondly, if any person simply goes home or somewhere else at any time,
again we do not have any problems. It happens that people cannot bear the
tension and difficulties. Some people leave. We are just sorry for them.
Today I am saying once more that if we say that the war is advantageous, for
us it is also advantageous. It is advantageous precisely for the Chechens,
for the Muslims. It is advantageous because our faith is growing stronger
in this war, our spirit is strengthening because we sin less in this war
and because we avoided a civil war thanks to this Russian aggression.
That's to say, we have gained a lot of benefits and the most important
benefit is that we have the chance to wage jihad today on the path of God -
may he be praised and exalted. This is the greatest benefit for us.
The remaining idea that this benefits oligarchs is just talk. There is a
Russian empire until the Russians themselves destroy this empire and until
they destroy its main ideology - Russism, which is worse than fascism -
they have lived on the blood of others for their entire lives and they will
continue to live on the blood of others. If they come to Chechnya, tomorrow
they will come to Azerbaijan, Georgia and Europe. They will not stop.
[Presenter] Vahid muallim, the Prosecutor-General's Office also accuses ANS
of propagandizing war. How can war be propagandized at all? That is to say,
we are interested in the technical method for doing this.
[Subhead] Azerbaijan should learn from Chechnya's resistance to Russia
[Mustafayev] I do not know. I think that it would be more pertinent if you
ask officials at the Prosecutor-General's Office about this. To be honest,
I do not know the answer to this question. I just want to say that this is
the work carried out by various special bodies, special services, they
carry out propaganda, they put to sleep the Azerbaijani people. They tell
them that they cannot wage war, that they can do nothing against Russia,
Russia can smash Azerbaijan, they tell them to look how strong Russia is,
how insidious it is. However, we see from the Shamil Basayev interview, and
in general it becomes clear to us from the Chechen war, that several field
commanders, each of them having, say, a maximum of 10,000 soldiers, can
easily stand up to Russia, despite its image, and indeed wage war against
it.
You say that they accuse us of propagandizing war. Unconditionally, by
showing Shamil Basayev, we are showing our commanders, our commanders of
tomorrow, the military, that they should learn how this one man is
resisting a country as large as Russia, and Russia cannot find or liquidate
him. He causes trouble for the Russian army. And we are ten times bigger
than the Chechen people, and we could do these things, too. Certainly, not
against Russia, but against an enemy of Azerbaijan. We should learn a
lesson from this. Our journalists' duty is to deliver this information so
that the necessary bodies take this information and work and do something
for themselves on its basis. That is to say, this interview that we are
seeing does, on the one hand, dispel this fear. And Russia's special
services were not interested in this fear being dispelled, do you
understand? Well, let us carry on listening, you are going to hear it now.
[Subhead] Chechens will fight until Caucasus is free, Russian empire
collapses
[Basayev] It is also part of the ideological time [as heard], what is
convenient for the oligarchs, [words indistinct], Wahhabism, and so on and
so forth. All this talk about a counter-terrorist operation, this is all
done so it can be said that what is going on here is not a war of national
liberation. [words indistinct] In these terms they are doing very well, as
can be seen at once, they are good pupils of Goebbels. Goebbels once said
that the more brazen a lie, the more plausible it is. And today, too, they
lie throughout the world in the most brazen way and are trying to deceive
everybody.
[Reporter] What do you foresee as being the outcome of this war? How would
you prefer to settle this war?
[Basayev] My preference is not to settle this war. And for the moment I do
not even want this war to stop, and we will not let it stop. We will not
stop this war as long as the Russian empire remains intact and we will
cause the collapse of the Russian empire, God willing, and we will fight
until the Caucasus is free.
[Reporter] Even if there will be a possibility for you to hold talks?
[Basayev] We will personally only hold talks strictly in accordance with
Sharia'h law. We once officially told [Chechen President Aslan] Maskhadov
this as well. Maskhadov shares the same view. For this reason, today I do
not want talks. Back in spring I said, wait for my leg to heal. Until then
you can withdraw your troops from here, but as soon as my leg heals, the
war will not be stopped, God willing. We will fight with Russia until the
Caucasus is free.
[Reporter] That is to say, if the Russian troops leave Chechnya, you will
keep on fighting -
[Basayev interrupts] We will follow them. We will not stop until we free the
Caucasus because we have no guarantees that the Russians won't come against
us again when they grow strong again in a year or two.
[Subhead] Azerbaijan should emulate Chechens' ability to find out what is
going on
[Presenter] Vahid muallim, Shamil Basayev has already expressed his attitude
to his interview not being broadcast. What do you think about this?
[Mustafayev] I know about this. Shamil Basayev wrote in his address, please,
do not touch Azerbaijani journalists because of me, I do not want them to
have a headache because of me. He went on to say that, in general, he
thought that this interview should be of more interest to the Azerbaijani
people than the Chechen people. Of course, there is truth in what he says.
For example, this should also be very interesting to us from the point of
view of gathering information. How come they are aware of everything in
their conditions - at war and completely isolated, and, moreover, when we
are being intimidated because Russia is a very powerful country. How come
they are aware of everything and can get information within several hours?
I admire this. This is very interesting indeed. We should also learn this
from them. We should learn how they collect information and so quickly
process it and respond or process it and carry out an operation. This
should be very interesting. Let us listen and see that they even watch
football matches.
[Subhead] Football is all Basayev watches on TV
[Reporter] Have you had any chance to watch TV recently?
[Basayev] I have had the chance but have no desire. To be honest, I think
that for the entire period of this war I have not watched TV for what
amounts to even a week. I have watched five or six times. Currently I have
a TV and we watch football using a battery. I like football. Football is
what I watch, I do not watch anything else.
[Reporter] What team do you support?
[Basayev] Today I supported Holland.
[reporter] Did you watch the Galatasaray match?
[Basayev] I did. When we were all watching it, a mojahed of ours said that
if the Turkish team had gone out onto the field with crosses round their
necks [like Christians], they would have won then. They would have not had
their player sent off and there would not been so much injustice against
them. They were simply misjudged in the most brazen way.
[Reporter] We just did not have a chance to see it yesterday.
[Basayev] Yesterday the Turkish team lost 2-0.
[Reporter] I just mean the Galatasaray match when it became -
[Basayev interrupts] Ah, I did not watch Galatasaray. I watched the Turkish
national team playing yesterday. They were simply misjudged in the 26th
minute, the central defender, if memory serves me right, was sent off.
[Presenter] Thoughts about the surrender of Shusha were voiced in previews
aired on ANS. Maybe, individual Azerbaijani state officials took such steps
as they were afraid Shamil Basayev might express some thoughts on this?
[Mustafayev] I understood your question. I do not believe that an
Azerbaijani official could have feared Shamil Basayev's words about
Karabakh. Not least because there is no official in Azerbaijan who went
through the Karabakh war. That is to say, unlike other countries - I do not
want to name them - our youth, patriotic sons who demonstrated their
heroism in our war, are currently begging in the streets or working as taxi
drivers or are doing other things. People who did not participate in and
have no idea at all about the war, are working in state bodies and state
structures. Thus, I cannot share your views.
The clip that you are going to see now is a wonderful clip in which our
correspondent, demonstrating his journalistic craft, asks Shamil Basayev
about Karabakh having been lost by Azerbaijan. And Shamil Basayev
interrupts him to say that Azerbaijan has not lost this war yet and - I do
not want to give everything away - and in this way he once again
demonstrates his respect towards the Azerbaijani people, the Azerbaijani
mojahedin, Azerbaijani patriots, of whom there are many in Azerbaijan
today, and the new generation has brought new ones. Let us check it out,
too, please.
[Subhead] Basayev praises Azerbaijani rank-and-file in Karabakh, criticizes
officers
[Reporter] I would like to switch to questions about Azerbaijan, mutual
relations with Azerbaijan and apart from that, a concrete question about
Nagornyy Karabakh. As is known, you visited Azerbaijan several times in
1992 and took an active part in hostilities for the liberation of Nagornyy
Karabakh. Why do you think Azerbaijan lost the war to the Armenians?
[Basayev] I don't know who says that Azerbaijan lost.
[Reporter] Well, the real situation now is that 20 per cent of Azerbaijani
territory has been occupied.
[Basayev] Let even 100 per cent of Azerbaijani territory be occupied, you
would not be satisfied, would you?
[Reporter] Of course, we would not be satisfied.
[Basayev] Then you don't have to say that someone lost. It is a temporary
success, temporary things are not constant.
[Reporter] I mean the hostilities that were going on there, i.e. Azerbaijan
unfortunately lost battles. What was the reason?
[Basayev] First, what I saw there, and many of my guys from one battalion
fought there and we nearly had an officer corps at that time. Other guys
saw it and we analysed all this. There were several reasons there. First it
was that this was an artificially-unleashed conflict. First of all, it was
unleashed by Russia. Because when they left, they knew they must leave, and
when they left they deliberately fanned the flames of this conflict in
advance to have a chance to influence or control the situation both in
Armenia and Azerbaijan. The Russians helped the Armenians very much.
Secondly, the Armenians were more prepared and thirdly, what I saw or what
somehow greatly surprised me was the enthusiasm and patriotism of the
rank-and-file of the Azerbaijani army, though the army, we can say, was a
relative thing because it was just being created at the time, and the
apathy and mood of time-serving amongst the officer corps. Many commanders
I met at the time, battalion commanders, behaved like petty princes. One
could think that he was a local king. I mean there was a big mess.
[Reporter] At that time, as is known, there was talk that Chechen mojahedin
had come to help the Azerbaijani national army and an agreement was reached
that the mojahedin were helping to liberate Nagornyy Karabakh in return for
trophies they were capturing from the Armenians. This agreement allegedly
existed. After that, for some other reasons, the Chechens left Azerbaijan.
What was the reason? Can you tell us what happened there?
[Basayev] To be honest, for example, I led my own mojahedin out of
Azerbaijan. We came there not for trophies, but for Jihad and to help for
the sake of God. But when we saw the situation, there was no sign of Jihad.
There was almost arbitrariness. We could not even [sentence as heard].
There were rare officers, especially among the top leadership, whom you
could trust. I can say that some sectors were even sold. In this situation,
the Chechen mojahedin were first allowed to take these trophies. But then
they started looking at this in a somewhat different way. I remember
talking to a brigade commander. He told me directly we cannot do it now, we
have been banned from taking weapons, ammunition and trophies away. I asked
what do you think is better for you - if the Armenians have these weapons
and use them against you or if we take them to Chechnya? He said of course
it would be better if you take them to Chechnya. Then what is the matter?
No. This was one of the aspects. The main reason was that the attitude
towards the Chechens changed there.
Propaganda was also working very well. Some of the top leadership became
fearful for its own interests. They created the atmosphere that it was
something like a pointless job and we just did not see any Jihad. I saw a
lot, especially rank-and-file Azerbaijani mojahedin, who supported their
people and state, as it were, body and soul, who did not spare their life
and fell on the battlefield. But there was no management and particularly
often, when great casualties were sustained because of the lack of talent
and stupidity of the officers, simply because of the stupidity of
commanders, no commander was punished. Any commander could just send his
people and no-one had any responsibility and no-one was responsible. The
life of ordinary soldiers was not valued at all.
[Subhead] Fall of Shusha due to lack of leadership
Shusha was also surrendered purely because there was no discipline and
leadership. No-one was responsible for anything again. This is the reason.
There was the strength and potential. There were four mojahedin and there
were 11 Azerbaijanis along with them. Almost everyone left, but 15 people
held out in defence on their own for one and half days - 15 men. And a
2,800-strong garrison left everything and ran away. That's it. At that
time, if someone escaped the battlefield with armoured hardware, he was a
hero because many left the hardware as well. Another thing that surprised
us was that all those retreating went up to Baku. It was such a strange
situation . Today, the people are simply blamed for that, meaning that the
Azerbaijanis don't want to fight, they cannot do this, that or the other.
It is also propaganda against the people. The Azerbaijanis can fight, I saw
it there, and there were a lot of mojahedin. But there was no management,
no specific people who could assume responsibility and no specific leaders.
You know there was everything, but it was all abandoned to its fate like
that. For this reason, both the people and everyone suffered.
[Reporter] I want to apologize, but if possible, I want to insist on my
question about Shusha. Can you tell us?
[Basayev] No, I cannot tell you.
[Reporter] At present, everyone in Azerbaijan knows that in reality Shusha
was betrayed. It was surrendered. It is necessary for us and for history.
[Basayev] Three of my mojahedin who defended Shusha are still alive. If
there is a chance for you to meet them, they can tell you about that.
Shusha was just abandoned. About 700 Armenians launched an offensive and it
was just a veneer. With such a strong garrison and so many weapons,
especially as Shusha itself is in a strategically significant position,one
hundred men can hold it for a year easily. There was no organization. Today
we can take one specific general or minister, we can just take them and say
you betrayed it, you took it, you sold it. It is all talk. There was no
single management. No-one was responsible for anything. If a couple of
dozen officers had been shot - I was greatly surprised that soldiers were
sent to fight so stupidly - there would have been a result.
What greatly surprised me was that when we once came to Baku in July, to
flying squad brigade 777, there was a new intake of recruits and everywhere
was crammed with soldiers, and they were being trained to march for days. A
lot became clear there with all this. We talked to officers. These people
knew the formation, turn right or turn left. Why should they be trained to
march like that as if they were in front of the Lenin Mausoleum? Wouldn't
it have been better to use this time for tactics, to teach them how to
handle weapons or especially to let them practice shooting? And another
minor detail, they had different uniforms. There was a rocky picture, rocky
colour - dark or dark grey, it looked very good. In this uniform, they just
sent a battalion to fight in this uniform near Agdam once. There was yellow
grass around and they were dressed in grey. Dark grey. They were clearly
visible as a target. I mean that things like this were not taken into
consideration. We analysed these things at one time. There were many errors
by the commanders.
And now the general blame is laid on the people, on the army, on everyone.
And I say once again - the army is good, excellent, there were mojahedin,
there were many talented officers. But they were at a low level, while at
the top there were those who graduated from [military] academies in Russia,
and we know how people become generals there.
It is a pity. There were and still are great possibilities. But certain
work, primarily moral and educational work, is not being carried out.
That's why there are such problems now.
[Subhead] Russia has no proof Azerbaijan aiding Chechnya
[Presenter in studio] Vahid muallim, the Russian mass media, both in the
first Chechen war [in1994-96] and in the current second Chechen war have
accused Azerbaijan of allegedly rendering financial and technical
assistance to the Chechens. Maybe our patriotic officials were scared that
Shamil Basayev had said something excessive.
[Mustafayev] First, Azerbaijan is not rendering financial and technical
assistance to the Chechen mojahedin. Therefore, officials have nothing to
fear. But I can agree with you that some officials are unaware of such
things and, yes, they could be scared. Because you know what interests
them.
As for Azerbaijan's assistance to Russia [as heard, presumably Chechnya],
you know, our president, Mr Heydar Aliyev, has repeatedly, laconically and
skilfully answered those raising these issues. And do remember that Russia
is a state which would have put forward any facts about any incident if it
had got its hands on them. They have no facts because Azerbaijan is not
doing this.
[Subhead] Russia's aim in stopping interview to hide shame of bribes
Secondly, the commander of Russia's Border Troops, [Konstantin] Totskiy has
repeatedly stated that such assistance certainly is not being rendered to
Chechnya by Azerbaijan. And the main thing is that Russia attempted to
prevent the broadcast of our interviews with Shamil Basayev and Maskhadov
because these interviews have once more proved to the whole world that, on
the contrary, Azerbaijan does not interfere in Russia's internal affairs.
Simply, Russia's internal affairs are in such a state that everything can
be settled there by bribery and money.
They have said recently that they allegedly took our tapes, that they took
the tape with Aslan Maskhadov's interview. This is a lie. They did not take
any of our tapes. They took their bribe and let our guys [journalists] in.
They took their bribe and talked with Chechens by radio saying that
"correspondents are coming from Azerbaijan to see you, please meet them".
And following all this, they received 720 dollars.
I mean, it is a very simple matter. And Russia's accusations against
Azerbaijan are primarily aimed at vindicating the Federal Security Service,
that Putin formerly headed, and are a new method of exerting pressure on
Azerbaijan. This is very simple.
Therefore, you know, please do not speak about our officials. Let's listen
to Basayev. This is more interesting.
[Subhead] Ordinary Muslims fund the Chechen war effort
[Basayev] Or for example, many people today are taking an interest in where
we are getting funds, they are making up stories that people ranging from
[Usamah] bin Ladin to [US President Bill] Clinton are helping us. Ordinary
Muslims, ordinary people are helping us. Not a single government in the
world is helping us.
I would like to mention a couple of cases in particular because they are
very interesting. An eight-year-old girl from Saudi Arabia brought her doll
to sell at auction when they were collecting money in school. The doll
costs 10 dinars. She brought the doll, the most precious thing to an
eight-year-old girl, to sell it and send money for the jihad. And a
businessman bought the doll for 1,000 dinars and she sent this money and
also a letter.
Or for example, an old woman from Qatar personally sent me 2,700 dollars
with a request to arm a mojahed using this money. If I arm a mojahed using
this money, the old woman will receive the same reward that God gives him
for his fighting. Therefore, she equips him fully. And I managed to fully
equip three mojahedin for this money. This money was enough to fully equip
them.
Students from the USA and England sent us a long letter and money. Some sent
one dollar, some sent a thousand dollars. It varies.
But we are not carrying out a special campaign to collect money because we
do not have a huge amount of expenditure, because the Russians are giving
us practically everything we need and they do this free of charge. Hit them
slightly on the head and they immediately leave everything. Most arms and
ammunition we have were captured. We obtain them in battle. Even our
uniforms are Russian, we buy them and arms from the Russians. Things that
we cannot take from them by force, we buy. And today we have no special
expenditure as, inshallah, we have no financial or other problems.
God says in the Koran that he will not abandon his servants who are keeping
to his path. Inshallah, his grace will not leave us today. And we trust
only in his grace today. We do not care today that Russia has 150 million
and they have a million-strong army. This is not a force for us, because
our force has greater strength, we are stronger because we have God's
grace. The only thing that we are scared of is losing God's grace. We fear
only this.
[Correspondent] What is written on your epaulettes?
[Basayev] It says there is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger.
[Presenter in studio] Vahid muallim, Basayev therefore said where and from
whom they, the mojahedin, are receiving assistance.
[Mustafayev] Yes.
[Presenter] And what would you like to say finally?
[Subhead] Only one Azeri official spoke against broadcast ban
[Mustafayev] What would I like to say finally? Nothing. I mean, you now
understand why the Russian special services wanted to ban the broadcasting
of these programmes, sorry, this programme. One more question arises. Why
did some officials in the Azerbaijani Republic not want to watch it? Why,
in wanting to ban this programme, did some officials deny there was
pressure from Russia? Why did Ali Hasanov find the strength to say this
while others could not? I would like all individuals who represent our
state to be motivated by the principles of our national interests,
patriotism. We need this very much. Maybe not the current generation, but
the next generation needs this very much. Unfortunately, we show little
respect for ourselves today. Let's see what Basayev says about this.
[Basayev] We are very grateful to the Azerbaijani people. We are very
grateful for the sympathy that they show to us. And we are very grateful to
other Muslims of the world.
[Mustafayev] That's it. Basayev says "thank you very much" to the
Azerbaijani people for their sympathy, i.e. for their love and because the
Azerbaijani people do not regard the Chechen people as terrorists today. I
think that this interview will cause some changes in the minds of the
Azerbaijani people.
But, this is not the end. I invite our viewers, only ANS viewers, to the
"Frank Conversation" programme at 2200 on Friday [1700 gmt 21st July]. You
will be able to see the interview with Chechen President Aslan Maskhadov in
this programme, or it would be more accurate to say you will be able to
watch a "Frank Conversation".
And finally, I would like to say a few words to sum up our conversation
today. And I would like to address these few words to all of our viewers.
To be more accurate, these words are not mine, but were said by the famous
[9th century] Azeri military leader Babek. He said "one should not be
scared of anyone or anything because a brave man dies once while a coward
dies every day." Let's be brave.
[Presenter] Thank you, Vahid muallim. I would like to recall that this was a
point of view of Vahid Mustafayev, the president of the ANS Independent
Broadcasting Company.
[Mustafayev] One main thing remains. I would like to say that as you can
see, we pulled a fast one, we broadcast the whole programme. People have
watched the whole interview with Basayev and nothing has changed. There are
some patriotic guys in BakGES [Baku electricity supply company].
[Presenter] Thank you.
Source: ANS TV, Baku, in Azeri 1630 gmt 19 Jul 00
BBC Mon TCU 200700 ad/at/ek/nm/ea/la/vz/sa/bk
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